Curse

Mordakai · Mar 12, 2006, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buoyancy

Factions by itself gives you 4 slots. Classic Guild Wars by itself gives you 4 slots. Thus Anet has promised us 8 character slots, and by dropping that number down to 6 for merged accounts they are giving us less than what we actually paid for.

WRONG. Never has Anet said (from anything I have read), that they would give linked versions 8 slots.

In fact, the first article I read on the subject (CGW), said only ONE slot would come with a linked Factions. That created a firestorm, and started the previous thread (now closed) "Petition for 2 slots."

That thread evolved into a unamed Petition for 4 slots, and the argument continues to this day on this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buoyancy

What I don't understand is why they refuse to implement any method for increasing the number of character slots on a given account. Note that buying a second account is not a valid solution, as there is no way to link the skills and items you've unlocked from the first account to the second account.

Agreed, and I for one am optimistic this will somehow be implemented in the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buoyancy

Why shouldn't I be able to just link the two accounts together so that I have 8 total character slots that all share the same unlocks?

Well, as I've tried to expain, Anet has already established the 4 new slots in beginning (no matter what Chapter is that beginning), and less afterwords if merged.

They cannot give 4 linked slots (for 8 total) with Factions, because then they'd have to do it with every Chapter after that (b/c not everyone is going to start with Factions... some might join with a later Chapter). People here say "think long term". Well, practice what you preach. If Anet is giving away 4 slots for each Chapter, by Chapter 10, the five million (or whatever number) of people playing Guild Wars will have 40 slots.

Since it's unfair to add the "bonus" slots with Factions, Anet will have to think of another way to satisfy customers like you. Some have suggested bonus slots with CEs, other have suggested "buying" slots directly from Anet.

Also, as to the comment that the "naysayers" are somehow "employed" by Anet... Please. Alex and Gaile come here all the time and comment on issues. Why would they employ piss-poor representatives like me who probably piss more people off than convince them?

I wish I was employed by Anet, but the truth is, I'm just a fanboy defending the product I love. I would love to have more slots, but saying crap like "8 slots were promised to us" and "we deserve 8 slots", is not going be allowed without some kind of comment from the "fanboys."

Rayea · Mar 12, 2006, 12:04 PM // 12:04

@ Mordekai

'They cannot give 4 linked slots (for 8 total) with Factions, because then they'd have to do it with every Chapter after that (b/c not everyone is going to start with Factions... some might join with a later Chapter). People here say "think long term". Well, practice what you preach. If Anet is giving away 4 slots for each Chapter, by Chapter 10, the five million (or whatever number) of people playing Guild Wars will have 40 slots.'

actually, all they have to do is fix it like this...

anyone that buys a single copy of a Guildwars game, be it the original or an aditional chapter, whic are all stand alone games.....will ALWAYS get 4 slots......if after any length of time, they buy an additonal chapter, they get 4 extra slots when merger to give a total of 8 combined solts......however, should they purchace a further chapter after the teo first ones..they will, like everyone else, NO MATTER WHICH CHAPTER THEY PURCASE....be given the 2 slots...

and yes. a smart organisation would sell slots to those that were willing to pay for them.

the best way is simply to sell them online or as a card in store..
and it dosent matter how many chapters you own, you would only ever get the normal chapter slot quotent if you do not buy extras...therefor, you dont *have* to buy if you dont want or cannot afford.

Hanok Odbrook · Mar 12, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

I have to agree with Mordakai on some points here. Anet never promised to give eight slots when merging. They never even promised to increase the amount of slots with Prophecies, although they did say it was a possibility at some point. And despite what Alex and the others might say, I think most of us believe their original plan was indeed to give us only one additional slot with a merge - trust me, I worked with columnists for many years and yes, they do make mistakes, but a gaming columnist writing about the hottest MMO to come along is not going to make a gaff like that. I pretty much expected to only get two additional slots as soon as Anet announced that two new professions would be introduced with Factions, so it comes as no surprise to me that that's what we finally got.

I do have to disagree that had Anet offered four slots with merged accounts that it would set a precedent. Certainly there are people here who would want four slots per merged chapter, but that gets into that "unreasonableness" area that I talked about several pages back. Again, the vast majority of us here, naysayers included, think one slot per prime is appropriate and reasonable - even as a paid for option. Getting back to this "4 per" thing, personally, I would not expect four new slots with each merger, unless there were four new professions included with a chapter. All I would expect would be an increase in the amount of slots equal to the number of new professions introduced, and no increase whatsoever is there were no new professions. Aside from the small group wanting four merged regardless, I don't think the bulk of us here, and those playing the game would expect anything more or less than that even if we were given eight slots right off the bat by merging Factions.

And as a personal aside, I want to thank Lovitar and Mordakai for being their fanboyish selves and actually contributing to the other side of the discussion here. This is what keeps drawing me back into this thread!

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

PS:
I just checked my time played on my account - almost 438 hours over 10 months. That's about 12-15 hours a week, right? I guess that places me smack dab in the midst of casual gamingness.

Mordakai · Mar 12, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rayea

actually, all they have to do is fix it like this...

anyone that buys a single copy of a Guildwars game, be it the original or an aditional chapter, whic are all stand alone games.....will ALWAYS get 4 slots......if after any length of time, they buy an additonal chapter, they get 4 extra slots when merger to give a total of 8 combined solts......however, should they purchace a further chapter after the teo first ones..they will, like everyone else, NO MATTER WHICH CHAPTER THEY PURCASE....be given the 2 slots...

I appreciate the logic of that, but it seems that, too, is just setting yourself up for complaints (how come I got 4 slots last time, but only 2 this time?).

But it's definately a unique solution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanock Odbrook

And as a personal aside, I want to thank Lovitar and Mordakai for being their fanboyish selves and actually contributing to the other side of the discussion here. This is what keeps drawing me back into this thread!

Thanks!

You know, without us, this thread would probably have died...

so, if anything, we're helping keep your arguments alive by keeping this thread on top!

Homicidal Brainiac · Mar 12, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53

I don't see what all the fuss is about, calm down everybody, they're only Char slots, your not going to die over them.

Andy_M · Mar 12, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Blimey, is this thread still alive ? I sort of figured that people would say their piece and let it go sort of thing.

Look, bottom line is Anet stiffed us on the expansion slots for a linked account, we all know that, they know we know that they know that. It's not a new problem, 4 character slots was never enough in the first place - and THAT'S the root of the kerfuffle.

From the looks of it I will have to bite the bullet, just get used to the paucity of extra slots and eventually be prepared to delete chars that I have spent months on. I'll do it, but I'll be god-damned if I'll do it quietly.

Agild Greenfinger · Mar 12, 2006, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Ok I think I’m going to give this one last attempt (I think). I’ll try and keep this free of harsh words for the nay-sayers(but god knows I’m refraining myself) nor will I go in to great detail or try to debunk all the silly statements they’ve personally have put forth(trust me I can debunk every last one of them) because it’s painfully obvious that the “raging-fanbois”(some more than others) are not to be reasoned with, and that no matter how good one’s argument would be they’d still ignore it, happily trudging around in circles in their own little world spewing one fallacy after the other for whatever reason. And quite frankly I can’t be bothered but there are just some general statements that are so silly that they really need to be addressed.

Seeing as I’m past the point of caring for the raging-fanbois, this should not be viewed as an attempt to convert the nay-sayers, but as an public service announcement to those still on the fence or those who(like the nay-sayers) have hard time seeing that they’re loosing out on this deal, but aren’t lost causes yet. Or better yet an attempt to catch an Anet representative’s attention.
So with no further ado I’ll start off, I’ll try and keep this simple so that even the raging-fanbois can follow.

Let’s start off with some simple math and some simple facts.

4 + 4 = 8 FACT!

4 + 4 ≠ 6 FACT!

Now to some generally used naysayer arguments and their counter:

Naysayer: “I don’t see anything wrong with this”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: I’m sure you failed maths as well. Take a look at the above math which is a FACT. All we want is for that math to be correct.

Naysayer: “wouldn’t we all like to have additional slots? But what would stop people from wanting more? Why not give us 6341534 slots?”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: so far the only ones who have put forth this ridiculous statement is the naysayers. Pretty much everyone arguing for an additional 4 slots with merged accounts, have been reasonable and have been wanting just that; 4 additional slots. Nothing more and nothing less.

Naysayer: “well I don’t even use all my slots and I’m happy, so I don’t see the problem!”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: good for you I’m happy for ya. However just because you don’t need anymore slots, does not mean that anyone else doesn’t and that the lack of slots isn’t preventing them from fully enjoying the game. Your reasoning is as lacking as that of a 3-year-old (“I like Ice-cream so everybody else must like it too”) or your lack of empathy is as appalling as that of people clinically judged “psychopaths”. Take your pick.

Naysayer: “I don’t care that I get two slots less, I like guild wars and in my mind it’s still worth it!”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: again, good for you I’m happy for ya. However it’s irrelevant, YOUR perception of the matter won’t change the FACT that you get less for more.

Story time:

Tim and Bob both bought 2 two boxes of the exact same chocolate each costing 50$ for a total of 100$ pr. Person.

Tim got a total of 6 pieces of chocolate and Bob got a total of 8.

It doesn’t matter that Tim really really likes the packaging or the company making the chocolate, the FACT is that he did a worse deal than Bob who might like the company and packaging just as much.

Enter Charles…Charles also bought 2 boxes of the same chocolate, but like Tim he only got 6 pieces of chocolate for his 100$ unlike Tim though, Charles isn’t exactly thrilled with this deal.
Now for Tim to deny that he made a worse deal than Bob or tell Charles that complaining is unjustified or whining, he would have to be delusional .

Naysayer: “I don’t get how character slots can be so important that you won’t be buying factions. So if Factions offered only character slots would you buy it then?”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: No. the problem isn’t specifically that we get less character slots; the problem is that we as return buyers, for whatever ungodly reason, get less content for the same amount of money. If we would have been loosing out on whatever other content simply because we choose to buy both of Anet’s products, we’d be unhappy as well. Because it simply makes no sense to punish return buyers like this.

Naysayer: “you guys should be happy that there’s no online fee”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: why? There’s plenty games out there without online fees (and onetime fees in general) both online and offline. I’ve played plenty of games without online fees for longer time than I’ve played guild wars. Don’t get me wrong yeah I’m glad that there’s no online fee that’s one of the reason I bought it in the first place, but Guild wars isn’t the saviour Christ in this regard. After all an online fee wouldn’t really be justified seeing as guild wars in essence really isn’t comparable to other true online MMORPGs, that’s why Anet can afford the no subscription fee model in the first place.

It’s funny how people seem to forget Guild wars’ closest relative… Diablo 2. Diablo 2 is very similar to guild wars in terms of online requirements (characters, storage etc. etc.) and run without online fees and battlenet in general does this.

In short just because there’s no online fee to play, it doesn’t justify return buyers to be punished.

(more coming I have to break it up into pieces because of character limits)

Naysayer: “6 are more than 4 and 6 x 100% is better than 8 x 50%”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: uhm yeah if you have to choose between to evils. You all seem to forget that 8 is more than 6 and that 8 x 100% is better than 6 x 100% which is what we’re asking for. And no it’s not an unreasonable request.

And just so that you moan about me using this for own gains, let’s turn the tables and apply it to Anet.

You all seem to think that it’s no biggy that some people won’t be buying factions because other new people will. Well it doesn’t really matter lost sales are lost sales regardless of whether or not you can deal with it, so Anet is still loosing money.

Let’s say 10% won’t be buying factions:

100% - 10% = 90% profit

Now you all say it doesn’t matter because new ones will join and make up for the 10% lost. Well try and consider if Anet hadn’t pissed people in the first place, then they would have had

100% + 10% = 110% profit

In short Anet is loosing money on this and I doubt anyone would be quitting if they got extra slots, even if they don’t need them, it doesn’t hurt them either.

Which again begs the question why do you even oppose 8 slots?

Naysayer: “you guys should be happy that you get 2 additional slots opposed to 1 like it was rumoured.”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: yes, I’m sure you’re thrilled that, that huge fella over there, only chopped off one of your arms and one of your legs, instead of two arms and a leg like it was rumoured he would….especially considering he really shouldn’t be chopping your arms or legs off in the first place. In fact I think you should be forever grateful, after all he actually GAVE you one additional arm!!1! (or did he?)

I think “the better of two evils” is fitting in nicely here.

Naysayer: “Well why don’t you just keep your accounts separate? That way you get 8 slots total”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: let me get this straight. so I buy two products in a combo pack for 100$ and with that deal I get a sucker punch to my left kidney…but wait I’m “lucky” because if I don’t like that deal I can buy the two products separate for 100$ still, but instead I’ll get a sucker punch to my right kidney. Gee I don’t know, I don’t really think I like neither of those deals, seems that again we’re left to choose between two evils, except this time they seem equally bad.

Whoa the world of business suddenly became this very surreal place where 4 + 4 =6 and the supposedly good deals consist of “buy 2 for the price of 3!!!” what the hell happened!?

Naysayer: “but Anet never promised 8 slots for chapter 2!”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: right. Anet never directly said “we promise 4 slots for chapter 2 no matter how you buy it” but there are certain things that are pretty much a given, at least if you have any common sense (something Anet and the raging-fanbois seem to be lacking). Like when you buy a 400GB hard disk for 50$ and then another 400GB hard disk for 50$ you’d pretty much expect that the total would amount to 800GB for 100$ even though the store clerk never promised you nor wrote an agreement in his own blood that it would. You’d still expect to get 800GB for your 100$ because getting any less wouldn’t make any sense and be dishonest business.

Common price deals goes:

“Buy 2 for the price of 2”

Or

“Buy 2 for the price of 1”

Never

“Buy 2 for the price of 3” (well I guess Anet is the exception that breaks the rule)

Naysayer: “but if Anet gives you more than 6 slots they loose money and will go bankrupt!”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: simple answer: NO. But I guess I need to waste some time explaining why here as with so many other things.

If your statement was true it would mean that Anet is already loosing money on chapter 1 or when they sell chapter 2 as a stand alone product. Which I think is safe to assume they’re not (Anet isn’t dumb after all, although this whole mess makes me wonder) If they’re not loosing money selling 4 character slots for 50$ they won’t be loosing money selling 8 slots for 100$ either.

If Anet is loosing money from chapter 1 right from the get go, then that’s extremely dumb business and one thing is for sure I’m not going to be the one paying for their ineptitude and miscalculation. And they deserve to go bankrupt. This is a rather unlikely scenario.

If Anet are counting on people to buy multiple accounts to manage to stay afloat (like some have hinted) it’s extremely dumb business as well as being extremely risky business. No company in their right mind would count on people buying the same product twice to be able to turn a profit. This is also a very unlikely scenario.

The only likely scenario we’re left with is that Anet is gaining profit from single bought chapter 1 and single bought chapter 2. They also know that they will gain extra profit from people weak-willed/ desperate/ willing enough to buy an additional account to make up for the shortage in slots. This is also bad business; it’s not bad business for Anet because after all they’re making more money. It is however bad business in the sense that it’s a highly unethical way of conducting business, seeing as Anet is gaining extra profit at the expense of the players…not only that but it’s at the expense of loyal customers and return buyers.

So yeah Anet might loose some money, but this is the extra profit that they’ve gained at the expense of players. Like I’ve said before, the sober way to gain extra profit should be to keep customers happy and entice them to invest additional money in your product because they feel like it’s worth investing extra in (like collectors editions, merchandise etc.) not because they feel like they’re missing out on things, especially things that would have been logical to get in the first place.

Naysayer: “but if they give 4 slots now it’ll create precedence and people will want 4 slots in future releases….and in chapter 10 they’ll have excess slots oh horror!”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: actually plenty of people have said that really they just want Anet to correct the initial shortage of slots that was present already in Prophecies. As soon as there is as many slots as there is primary classes they would be happy. There probably will be some that would still want 4 slots pr. Chapter, and I ask you would it really be so horrible? Like I’ve shown in above example Anet really wouldn’t be loosing money on it. If they don’t loose money on 4 slots for 50$ and they don’t loose money on 8 slots for 100$ that’s right then they won’t be loosing money on 12 slots for 150$. So what if people wouldn’t necessarily be using them, does it hurt anybody? No. in the meanwhile it simply will allow people to try out 2 additional secondary professions without having to bother going thru the process of changing secondaries.

Also do you honestly think Anet will even make 10 chapters with 2 professions for each for a total of 24 professions? I recon that Anet at a absolute max will be able to get to chapter 5 with 2 prof. pr. Chapter for a total of 16 professions(and even that’s a stretch) without seriously diluting the game play and have professions overlapping each other to the point where the game play is ruined. At chapter 5 it would be 20 slots for 14 characters, that doesn’t really seem so bad in the character to slot ratio. Once they stop adding new professions there won’t be much need for additional character slots, I recon that at this point they will actually start to do actual expansion packs if they will be making anything at all.

Naysayer: “but more slots would ruin game balance and economy etc etc.”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: no it wouldn’t. This is one of the things I can’t even be bothered to explain, just trust me it wouldn’t ruin anything.

Naysayer: “you’re paying for the ability to cross over characters with two slots”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: why? Since day one it was taunted as a feature that you would be able to transfer your characters from one chapter to the other and as such it shouldn’t be taxed. In fact check the prophecies FAQ and you’ll see that it was never mentioned that there would be any diminishing returns for doing so. Yeah I do realise that a FAQ isn’t exactly a binding contract, but I’d still dare to say that it counts as false advertising. I mean it doesn’t mention anything at all about the loss in doing so, not even a disclaimer or small print.

This was in fact one of the major selling points for me in deciding to buy prophecies, because you could transfer characters and keep playing thru the new expansions. If I had known that it would come with a loss other than paying full retail price for something that is essentially an expansion to return buyers, I’m not really sure I would have bought Prophecies in the first place. (I’m not complaining about the full price for the expansions. I think it’s fair enough considering the game can actually be used for a stand alone game and it is one of the things I’m willing to pay to make up for the lack of online fees)

But so much for “no hidden fees”

Argh ok so this ended up longer and more in depth that I originally intended.
Anyways I’m tired now. And will stop for now, however if some of you guys who would like more slots notice that I’ve forgotten some general naysayer arguments, post them and I’ll happily add them as well as debunk them.

All in all I’m disappointed with Anet on this matter, and I won’t be buying Factions unless we’re provided with an official reason for this move that makes sense. So anet if you’re reading this at least give us a reason for this move. I’m won’t mind buying the game if you have a valid reason for cutting return buyers short like this.

As for you people on the fence or unhappy, I say grow some balls and don’t buy the game. Anet won’t care that you’re displeased if you’re just going to throw your money at them anyway, why should they? No monthly fee and you already paid them. This is a very good year for gaming there a plenty other good games out there that you will be able to have just as much fun with, without feeling that you got cheated…Oblivion will be one of them. Besides I really think that there are still too many uncertainties as to how Anet wants Guild wars to turn out, and I think that even if they manage to add something cool to factions that might ever sway me to buy it anyway (not gonna happen) I will still wait for the 3rd chapter to see how things pans out in regards to character slots and professions in general.

Inureface · Mar 13, 2006, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Actaully, I have to agree COMPLTELY with everything agild said. I always had the same logic but could never put it in such a way to deter the idiots who pick at stupid parts of the arguemnt.

Rok · Mar 13, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59

While I am one who wants 1 slot/primary class, I think I could manage with only a single slot if they allowed us to change primary as well.

It would just be a matter of taking class selection out of character creation - replacing it with body-type selection instead. And then making you choose a primary in pre before also making you choose 2nd. Then after the desert quests would also allow you to change primary. Or even adding additional quests to allow primary switch.

Buoyancy · Mar 13, 2006, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

WRONG. Never has Anet said (from anything I have read), that they would give linked versions 8 slots.

Please learn to read. I stated that Factions by itself gives you 4 slots, and Prophecies by itself gives you 8 slots. Thus you have paid for 8 slots. By only giving a person with a merged account 6 slots, Anet is not giving us what we actually paid for. Thus they have promised us 8 character slots when we buy the expansion.

Quote:

In fact, the first article I read on the subject (CGW), said only ONE slot would come with a linked Factions. That created a firestorm, and started the previous thread (now closed) "Petition for 2 slots."

If they had only provided one slot, then I would never purchase the expansion. With two, I might, but it's not likely for another six months or so.

Quote:

Well, as I've tried to expain, Anet has already established the 4 new slots in beginning (no matter what Chapter is that beginning), and less afterwords if merged.

What does it matter that they've already established something if what they have already established isn't sufficient?

Quote:

They cannot give 4 linked slots (for 8 total) with Factions, because then they'd have to do it with every Chapter after that (b/c not everyone is going to start with Factions... some might join with a later Chapter). People here say "think long term". Well, practice what you preach. If Anet is giving away 4 slots for each Chapter, by Chapter 10, the five million (or whatever number) of people playing Guild Wars will have 40 slots.

So what? They've paid the full price for those slots. We know this for a fact because Prophecies costs _less_ than Factions, and gives you _twice_ as many character slots. What is wrong with a person having 40 character slots? If that person has paid for those slots, then they deserve to have access to them.

Quote:

Since it's unfair to add the "bonus" slots with Factions, Anet will have to think of another way to satisfy customers like you. Some have suggested bonus slots with CEs, other have suggested "buying" slots directly from Anet.

No it's not unfair. It's giving the customer what they paid for. I won't be buying factions until I get all 8 characters that I have paid for.

Quote:

I wish I was employed by Anet, but the truth is, I'm just a fanboy defending the product I love. I would love to have more slots, but saying crap like "8 slots were promised to us" and "we deserve 8 slots", is not going be allowed without some kind of comment from the "fanboys."

The problem with fanboys is that they start making arguments that the customers should roll over and take it when a company complains that something would cost them too much money.

Thom · Mar 13, 2006, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agild Greenfinger

Ok I think I’m going to give this one last attempt (I think). I’ll try and keep this free of harsh words for the nay-sayers(but god knows I’m refraining myself) nor will I go in to great detail or try to debunk all the silly statements they’ve personally have put forth(trust me I can debunk every last one of them) because it’s painfully obvious that the “raging-fanbois”(some more than others) are not to be reasoned with, and that no matter how good one’s argument would be they’d still ignore it, happily trudging around in circles in their own little world spewing one fallacy after the other for whatever reason. And quite frankly I can’t be bothered but there are just some general statements that are so silly that they really need to be addressed. .

Way to be unbias! Nay-sayers is a strong term for those who disagree with your gripe. There is no moral superiority on either side, just a disagreement on what is a fair policy. Obviously it is for the individual to decide how they spend their money, but many believe that the number of new slots is not sufficient reason to purchase or not purchase the game. I feel that 2 slots won't reduce the experience of the average gamer. This is not a matter of "rights" or "responding to the customer" it is what A-net feels is the best for its fans and business model.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agild Greenfinger

Let’s start off with some simple math and some simple facts.

4 + 4 = 8 FACT!

4 + 4 ≠ 6 FACT!

Now to some generally used naysayer arguments and their counter:

Naysayer: “I don’t see anything wrong with this”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: I’m sure you failed maths as well. Take a look at the above math which is a FACT. All we want is for that math to be correct.

Look at this from a Factions only point of view. If you link you get to play factions with 6 slots>4 slots. You also can play prophecies with 2 more accounts above what you originally payed for. This isn't "FACT", this isn't cut and dry. This is extremely debatable. You can get the equivalent of prophecies if you'd like by not linking, but you could also link at a cost. If you can get the exact same product for equal money by not linking, giving an alternative option is at most better since some will choose it over an equivalent product. You really need to take some economic theory before slamming others maths.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agild Greenfinger

Naysayer: “wouldn’t we all like to have additional slots? But what would stop people from wanting more? Why not give us 6341534 slots?”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: so far the only ones who have put forth this ridiculous statement is the naysayers. Pretty much everyone arguing for an additional 4 slots with merged accounts, have been reasonable and have been wanting just that; 4 additional slots. Nothing more and nothing less.

Sounds good until you look at the facts. Originally people were asking for 2 slots, which was justified and now people are asking for four. There is a problem with having infinite slots in this game from a business perspective if nothing else. The fact that you ask for 4 slots means you want 4 slots every 6 months with every chapter, which means you want a ton more slots than your "naysayers". The argument isn't as out there as you'd like to make it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agild Greenfinger

Naysayer: “well I don’t even use all my slots and I’m happy, so I don’t see the problem!”

[B]Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: good for you I’m happy for ya. However just because you don’t need anymore slots, does not mean that anyone else doesn’t and that the lack of slots isn’t preventing them from fully enjoying the game. Your reasoning is as lacking as that of a 3-year-old (“I like Ice-cream so everybody else must like it too”) or your lack of empathy is as appalling as that of people clinically judged “psychopaths”. Take your pick.[/B}
Naysayer: “I don’t care that I get two slots less, I like guild wars and in my mind it’s still worth it!”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: again, good for you I’m happy for ya. However it’s irrelevant, YOUR perception of the matter won’t change the FACT that you get less for more.

The argument is really about throwing off in game balance. People don't want to have to grind 4 players to be competitive. Go see my 15 other posts on this. If this didn't effect the entire community we wouldn't care. If I don't view the policy as unfair and I like the balance more, then this point of view isn't totally stupid as you'd make it out to be. If I wanted to grind forever I'd play Silkroad like all the EP guys are doing atm, but the lack of grind is part of what makes the game interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agild Greenfinger

Story time:

Tim and Bob both bought 2 two boxes of the exact same chocolate each costing 50$ for a total of 100$ pr. Person.

Tim got a total of 6 pieces of chocolate and Bob got a total of 8.

It doesn’t matter that Tim really really likes the packaging or the company making the chocolate, the FACT is that he did a worse deal than Bob who might like the company and packaging just as much.

Enter Charles…Charles also bought 2 boxes of the same chocolate, but like Tim he only got 6 pieces of chocolate for his 100$ unlike Tim though, Charles isn’t exactly thrilled with this deal.
Now for Tim to deny that he made a worse deal than Bob or tell Charles that complaining is unjustified or whining, he would have to be delusional .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agild Greenfinger

Naysayer: “I don’t get how character slots can be so important that you won’t be buying factions. So if Factions offered only character slots would you buy it then?”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: No. the problem isn’t specifically that we get less character slots; the problem is that we as return buyers, for whatever ungodly reason, get less content for the same amount of money. If we would have been loosing out on whatever other content simply because we choose to buy both of Anet’s products, we’d be unhappy as well. Because it simply makes no sense to punish return buyers like this.

Naysayer: “you guys should be happy that there’s no online fee”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: why? There’s plenty games out there without online fees (and onetime fees in general) both online and offline. I’ve played plenty of games without online fees for longer time than I’ve played guild wars. Don’t get me wrong yeah I’m glad that there’s no online fee that’s one of the reason I bought it in the first place, but Guild wars isn’t the saviour Christ in this regard. After all an online fee wouldn’t really be justified seeing as guild wars in essence really isn’t comparable to other true online MMORPGs, that’s why Anet can afford the no subscription fee model in the first place.

It’s funny how people seem to forget Guild wars’ closest relative… Diablo 2. Diablo 2 is very similar to guild wars in terms of online requirements (characters, storage etc. etc.) and run without online fees and battlenet in general does this.

In short just because there’s no online fee to play, it doesn’t justify return buyers to be punished.

(more coming I have to break it up into pieces because of character limits)

Naysayer: “6 are more than 4 and 6 x 100% is better than 8 x 50%”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: uhm yeah if you have to choose between to evils. You all seem to forget that 8 is more than 6 and that 8 x 100% is better than 6 x 100% which is what we’re asking for. And no it’s not an unreasonable request.

And just so that you moan about me using this for own gains, let’s turn the tables and apply it to Anet.

You all seem to think that it’s no biggy that some people won’t be buying factions because other new people will. Well it doesn’t really matter lost sales are lost sales regardless of whether or not you can deal with it, so Anet is still loosing money.

Let’s say 10% won’t be buying factions:

100% - 10% = 90% profit

Now you all say it doesn’t matter because new ones will join and make up for the 10% lost. Well try and consider if Anet hadn’t pissed people in the first place, then they would have had

100% + 10% = 110% profit

In short Anet is loosing money on this and I doubt anyone would be quitting if they got extra slots, even if they don’t need them, it doesn’t hurt them either.

Which again begs the question why do you even oppose 8 slots?

Naysayer: “you guys should be happy that you get 2 additional slots opposed to 1 like it was rumoured.”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: yes, I’m sure you’re thrilled that, that huge fella over there, only chopped off one of your arms and one of your legs, instead of two arms and a leg like it was rumoured he would….especially considering he really shouldn’t be chopping your arms or legs off in the first place. In fact I think you should be forever grateful, after all he actually GAVE you one additional arm!!1! (or did he?)

I think “the better of two evils” is fitting in nicely here.

Naysayer: “Well why don’t you just keep your accounts separate? That way you get 8 slots total”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: let me get this straight. so I buy two products in a combo pack for 100$ and with that deal I get a sucker punch to my left kidney…but wait I’m “lucky” because if I don’t like that deal I can buy the two products separate for 100$ still, but instead I’ll get a sucker punch to my right kidney. Gee I don’t know, I don’t really think I like neither of those deals, seems that again we’re left to choose between two evils, except this time they seem equally bad.

Whoa the world of business suddenly became this very surreal place where 4 + 4 =6 and the supposedly good deals consist of “buy 2 for the price of 3!!!” what the hell happened!?

Naysayer: “but Anet never promised 8 slots for chapter 2!”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: right. Anet never directly said “we promise 4 slots for chapter 2 no matter how you buy it” but there are certain things that are pretty much a given, at least if you have any common sense (something Anet and the raging-fanbois seem to be lacking). Like when you buy a 400GB hard disk for 50$ and then another 400GB hard disk for 50$ you’d pretty much expect that the total would amount to 800GB for 100$ even though the store clerk never promised you nor wrote an agreement in his own blood that it would. You’d still expect to get 800GB for your 100$ because getting any less wouldn’t make any sense and be dishonest business.

Common price deals goes:

“Buy 2 for the price of 2”

Or

“Buy 2 for the price of 1”

Never

“Buy 2 for the price of 3” (well I guess Anet is the exception that breaks the rule)

Naysayer: “but if Anet gives you more than 6 slots they loose money and will go bankrupt!”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: simple answer: NO. But I guess I need to waste some time explaining why here as with so many other things.

If your statement was true it would mean that Anet is already loosing money on chapter 1 or when they sell chapter 2 as a stand alone product. Which I think is safe to assume they’re not (Anet isn’t dumb after all, although this whole mess makes me wonder) If they’re not loosing money selling 4 character slots for 50$ they won’t be loosing money selling 8 slots for 100$ either.

If Anet is loosing money from chapter 1 right from the get go, then that’s extremely dumb business and one thing is for sure I’m not going to be the one paying for their ineptitude and miscalculation. And they deserve to go bankrupt. This is a rather unlikely scenario.

If Anet are counting on people to buy multiple accounts to manage to stay afloat (like some have hinted) it’s extremely dumb business as well as being extremely risky business. No company in their right mind would count on people buying the same product twice to be able to turn a profit. This is also a very unlikely scenario.

The only likely scenario we’re left with is that Anet is gaining profit from single bought chapter 1 and single bought chapter 2. They also know that they will gain extra profit from people weak-willed/ desperate/ willing enough to buy an additional account to make up for the shortage in slots. This is also bad business; it’s not bad business for Anet because after all they’re making more money. It is however bad business in the sense that it’s a highly unethical way of conducting business, seeing as Anet is gaining extra profit at the expense of the players…not only that but it’s at the expense of loyal customers and return buyers.

So yeah Anet might loose some money, but this is the extra profit that they’ve gained at the expense of players. Like I’ve said before, the sober way to gain extra profit should be to keep customers happy and entice them to invest additional money in your product because they feel like it’s worth investing extra in (like collectors editions, merchandise etc.) not because they feel like they’re missing out on things, especially things that would have been logical to get in the first place.

Naysayer: “but if they give 4 slots now it’ll create precedence and people will want 4 slots in future releases….and in chapter 10 they’ll have excess slots oh horror!”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: actually plenty of people have said that really they just want Anet to correct the initial shortage of slots that was present already in Prophecies. As soon as there is as many slots as there is primary classes they would be happy. There probably will be some that would still want 4 slots pr. Chapter, and I ask you would it really be so horrible? Like I’ve shown in above example Anet really wouldn’t be loosing money on it. If they don’t loose money on 4 slots for 50$ and they don’t loose money on 8 slots for 100$ that’s right then they won’t be loosing money on 12 slots for 150$. So what if people wouldn’t necessarily be using them, does it hurt anybody? No. in the meanwhile it simply will allow people to try out 2 additional secondary professions without having to bother going thru the process of changing secondaries.

Also do you honestly think Anet will even make 10 chapters with 2 professions for each for a total of 24 professions? I recon that Anet at a absolute max will be able to get to chapter 5 with 2 prof. pr. Chapter for a total of 16 professions(and even that’s a stretch) without seriously diluting the game play and have professions overlapping each other to the point where the game play is ruined. At chapter 5 it would be 20 slots for 14 characters, that doesn’t really seem so bad in the character to slot ratio. Once they stop adding new professions there won’t be much need for additional character slots, I recon that at this point they will actually start to do actual expansion packs if they will be making anything at all.

I have a sense of reason and a degree in both mathematics and economics. We really can't make any definative statement about A-nets profits. We do know that A-net makes the majority of profits not from "hardcore" gamers, but from casual and semi-casual gamers. We need only to look at the sales numbers to see that. There simply not enough hardcore gamers to sell that many copies. Anet's profits come from mass sales of those people who are held by a strong game balance and low time commitment for competitive play. Having 4 slots will be of a much greater benefit for far fewer players where 2 slots promotes a greater balance between high usage and low usage players. A-net will lose the most money if they let high-usage players the game since this will reduce the sales among those who will provide the greatest profits. The worst case scenerio is the little guy leaving because the game is increasingly dominated by people with the "perfect build" and "rank 14+++".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agild Greenfinger

Naysayer: “but more slots would ruin game balance and economy etc etc.”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: no it wouldn’t. This is one of the things I can’t even be bothered to explain, just trust me it wouldn’t ruin anything.

What an argument! This is the CORE ISSUE and you say "trust me". You belittle and rant about things you know nothing about and then we get to the core of things and you have zero to say. Your hot air is laughable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agild Greenfinger

Naysayer: “you’re paying for the ability to cross over characters with two slots”

Anyone with the slightest sense of reason: why? Since day one it was taunted as a feature that you would be able to transfer your characters from one chapter to the other and as such it shouldn’t be taxed. In fact check the prophecies FAQ and you’ll see that it was never mentioned that there would be any diminishing returns for doing so. Yeah I do realise that a FAQ isn’t exactly a binding contract, but I’d still dare to say that it counts as false advertising. I mean it doesn’t mention anything at all about the loss in doing so, not even a disclaimer or small print.

This was in fact one of the major selling points for me in deciding to buy prophecies, because you could transfer characters and keep playing thru the new expansions. If I had known that it would come with a loss other than paying full retail price for something that is essentially an expansion to return buyers, I’m not really sure I would have bought Prophecies in the first place. (I’m not complaining about the full price for the expansions. I think it’s fair enough considering the game can actually be used for a stand alone game and it is one of the things I’m willing to pay to make up for the lack of online fees)

But so much for “no hidden fees”

Argh ok so this ended up longer and more in depth that I originally intended.
Anyways I’m tired now. And will stop for now, however if some of you guys who would like more slots notice that I’ve forgotten some general naysayer arguments, post them and I’ll happily add them as well as debunk them.

All in all I’m disappointed with Anet on this matter, and I won’t be buying Factions unless we’re provided with an official reason for this move that makes sense. So anet if you’re reading this at least give us a reason for this move. I’m won’t mind buying the game if you have a valid reason for cutting return buyers short like this.

Well at least you address one core issue reasonably well. The fact that you don't like the business model doesn't mean that it is in some way wrong or unfair. You are paying for 4 new slots or 2 new slots and the transfer of 4 slots. Here is the problem with your argument, you can get a product which is identical with Prophecies for a simlar price: You'll get a similar number of skills and an equal number of unlinked slots as a stand alone. Most people will link there accounts, meaning they value the linked accounts more. This means that most people choosing to link accounts would pay MORE for the 6-slot accounts, since they payed $50 for 4 unlinked slots and given the choice they choose 6 linked slots. So for many players, paying $50 is a good deal. Now obviously 8 slots would be a preferred product unless it messes with balance which is the larger argument you refuse to address.

It is perfectly fair to say that you would like 4 slots and you don't think it will hurt balance, but this is an opinion that is far from substanciated. A-net is better off not getting into this conversation and they don't owe you an explanation. They didn't make this decision because they are stupid and they are probably better off not discussing the details of their business model in public. The fact that you would demand that information is laughable. The fact that you would call people who are trying to explain A-net position idiots is ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agild Greenfinger

As for you people on the fence or unhappy, I say grow some balls and don’t buy the game. Anet won’t care that you’re displeased if you’re just going to throw your money at them anyway, why should they? No monthly fee and you already paid them. This is a very good year for gaming there a plenty other good games out there that you will be able to have just as much fun with, without feeling that you got cheated…Oblivion will be one of them. Besides I really think that there are still too many uncertainties as to how Anet wants Guild wars to turn out, and I think that even if they manage to add something cool to factions that might ever sway me to buy it anyway (not gonna happen) I will still wait for the 3rd chapter to see how things pans out in regards to character slots and professionsf\ in general.

If you enjoyed the first game you will have more content with the second game. You will be able to play the second campaign with up to six different characters (not 4, not 2). If you are going to enjoy the game with 8 slots, then odds are you will enjoy the very same game with 6 slots (or 4 slots). If the game is only with $50 if you can play it 8 times without deleting, just don't bother. If you aren't buying the game because you feel "cheated", get over yourself. Anet is providing a product which you aren't happy with, but as you said there are alternatives. People know this, no reason to tell people that they have some sort of obligation not to play guild wars if they aren't completely happy with it; all you really need is to be "$50 happy" with the game. There are plenty of games I have paid full price for far less time and enjoyment. I'll be playing oblivion and factions eventually.

Obviously some people won't like the business model, but it is designed for longevity and enduring quality. It is slightly cheaper then your average MMORPG and offers a unique playing style unlike any MMORPGs. Judge the product on the merits, not some crusade of fairness. I don't see why being angry (or self-rightous) about this helps anyone including yourself. It just seems odd that you would want to play this game for the time it takes to play 8 slots, but the game is too expensive to play through only 6 times. Am I wrong to find this odd?

Boyancy:
You can choose between 4+4 unlinked or 6 linked. These are very different options and it is not that matter of simply adding numbers. Each game independently has more slots of access when linked. you aren't buying slots you are buying one of the two options (or both if you buy two copies). Anet isn't cheating you if you are fully aware of what you are purchasing ahead of time. If you want 8 slots you have that option, if you want linked accounts you have that option. Your choice!

I can see part of your argument, but I would simply ask you to realize that there may be more to this then Anet being evil. When people call out Anet, I will post a response (search this thread for all my points), If people start acting as if this is incredibly onesided, then I'll post an alternative point of view. This thing has gone on for 35 pages, largely on topic. If the matter were simple we'd all give up and go home. I for one feel that the long term stability of the game will be hurt by more linked spots. It is a matter of expected grind which I have covered before. It is simply the case the good smart people can actually disagree on the motives of Anet here.

Raif · Mar 13, 2006, 08:34 AM // 08:34

You just couldnt snip the above quotation could you.. you had to rehash it all for our benefit..

To Summarize 35 pages..

original players are being screwed over the char slots
Counter balanced by all the carebears that love Anet and think they do no wrong..

Anet lack of response to this thread ftw!

Mordakai · Mar 13, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raif

You just couldnt snip the above quotation could you.. you had to rehash it all for our benefit..

To Summarize 35 pages..

original players are being screwed over the char slots
Counter balanced by all the carebears that love Anet and think they do no wrong..

Anet lack of response to this thread ftw!

LOL. It is intriguing that Anet has said nothing on the issue...

I resent being called a "carebear". though. What, just because there logically must be some reason Anet decided to give 2 slots for merging Factions?

As Loviatar has said many times, there must be a reason. Anet wouldn't piss off people on purpose for no good reason.

Renegade ++RIP++ · Mar 13, 2006, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Profit is prolly the biggest reason to piss people off. Although I'm having some faith again due to some of Gailes statements in the chat lof of 13/03/2006. Namely offering the option of buying extra charslots against a price that would offset the costs. As long as this would be offered at a reasonable price, I would be willing to do so. (ergo 20bucks a slot ain't reasonable for me, 5 - 10 i might consider it). Although this was just thrown out there as a possibility.

But my view of the fact that gaile is coming forward with that now is because of threads like these, where there are people debating the lack of charslots. Nobody ever stated that we wanted 20 slots, if you go and read back most of the posts in the previous threads, you would see the same arguments getting rehashed, namely people asking for 4 to get the 1 slot per primeprofession while opposing people (sometimes called nay-sayers) were debating that 1 was a tad little but that 2 would be very generous. The silence of anet for this entire time was a big indication that they weren't even considering the lack of charslots to be a real problem. But after the severe outcries of the community (bar some) adapted it to the minimal people would have accepted. I'm fairly confident if everybody had stated they considered 8 slots while linked to be fair that we would have received 8 slots.

Therefore it is only because of these well founded outcries that we will see any change concerning charslots. And by keeping the demands reasonable we offer options to extend the number of charslots to an amount that satisfies the grand majority. I will agree that some people will want more and more and more, but I, and many more, will be happy once we can enjoy every profession as a primary without having to delete any of my chars in which we invested a lot of time. I would consider it a waste, like killing your own baby since who cares we can always make a new one...

So to wrap this up in a final statement, I still consider the reason that anets states that 8*50 < 6*100 to be somewhat fuzzy. But if they offer the option of buying extra charslots agaisnt a reasonable price I would be willing to look past this due to the fact of creating a semi MMORPG based on a no monthly cost, even although the technology used has proven itself on limitless charslots in other 1 time buyable multi player rpgs.

Ow and as a little sidenote thorn, I don't see how adding extra charslots to the game would have any real ecnomic or balancing issues within the game. For the moment any pvp person can play any char due to the ease of deletion and recreation and ease of unlocking with faction from the standpoint of balancing. Now for the standpoint of economic reasons, you can set it up as standalone, heck even run 2 copies on 1 pc, although in windowed mode, to exchange inventory. Seeing that factions can be installed standalone this would make you able to play with a grand total of 8 chars and have a bit more then 8/6th the amount of inventory space in comparison with the linked version to influence the economy. On top of that the ability to exchange between your chars will still make you able to influence the tyria economy even if you haven't got access to tyria with your factions account, since you can just use your prophecy one. So really I'm a tad interested in the items why you consider it having an influence on balancing and the economy, just out of curiosity and to broaden my view.

Mordakai · Mar 13, 2006, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Renegade, do you have a transcript of that log by Gaile? That sounds like good news.

In terms of effecting the Game economy or balance somehow, I think those arguments were effectively shot down.

That leaves just economic cost to Anet, or just a (poor)? design decision as possible reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buoyancy

So what? They've paid the full price for those slots. We know this for a fact because Prophecies costs _less_ than Factions, and gives you _twice_ as many character slots. What is wrong with a person having 40 character slots? If that person has paid for those slots, then they deserve to have access to them.

You're assuming the 40 slots X 5 million (or how many ever players GW has by then) won't cost Anet more than it's worth. Keep in mind, you're $50 is not just paying for slots... they pay for a whole host of expenses that has been detailed here before. If you feel that the slot issue is enough to keep you from buying it, fine. I've already pre-ordered mine!

BellyFlop · Mar 13, 2006, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Galie Gray about the slots

Thx to Aaiiry Astald for posting the chat at Gwonline.

My option again is given the change to buy more slots I would not have a problem in doing it, if that what it takes for me to get more out of the game without having to delete complete characters.

If they think this could be used for abuse then make it, only 2 extra slots per cd key account. Something like that.

Mordakai · Mar 13, 2006, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by BellyFlop

My option again is given the change to buy more slots I would not have a problem in doing it, if that what it takes for me to get more out of the game without having to delete complete characters.

If they think this could be used for abuse then make it, only 2 extra slots per cd key account. Something like that.

Sounds good to me... at least Anet is aware a demand does exist for more slots!

Cjlr · Mar 13, 2006, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Methinks Gaile made a little mistake with her order of operations...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Add 4 + 4 x 0.50
Then try 6 x 1.00

6 x 1.00 = 6. Pretty simple.
But when you evaluate the next expression...
4 + 4 x 0.50 = 6. Oops...

Now, when you put it this way...
(4 + 4)(0.50)
You get 4 (as intended, I would assume).

Then you've got a difference - and an argument. It isn't much of an issue if the two statements are equal.

Probably what this little bit refers to:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

No, I am quite good at maths, thanks.

Mordakai · Mar 13, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cjlr

Methinks Gaile made a little mistake with her order of operations...

6 x 1.00 = 6. Pretty simple.
But when you evaluate the next expression...
4 + 4 x 0.50 = 6. Oops...

Now, when you put it this way...
(4 + 4)(0.50)
You get 4 (as intended, I would assume).

Then you've got a difference - and an argument. It isn't much of an issue if the two statements are equal.

LOL That was awesome.

However, in the worst case, Gaile's bad math just shows that linking factions is equal to unlinking.... which is probably closer to the truth, anyway. (More slots for unlinking balances out the lack of compatibility?)

Bah, who cares, it was a stupid argument to begin with. Gaile should stick to explaining things her own way, and not paraphrasing people "back at the office..."

Buoyancy · Mar 13, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

It is perfectly fair to say that you would like 4 slots and you don't think it will hurt balance, but this is an opinion that is far from substanciated.

Then you are an idiot. Currently a person has access to every single skill from every single profession from a single character, so adding two extra PVE characters cannot possibly throw off the PVP balance.

Quote:

You can choose between 4+4 unlinked or 6 linked. These are very different options and it is not that matter of simply adding numbers. Each game independently has more slots of access when linked. you aren't buying slots you are buying one of the two options (or both if you buy two copies). Anet isn't cheating you if you are fully aware of what you are purchasing ahead of time. If you want 8 slots you have that option, if you want linked accounts you have that option. Your choice!

I'm sorry, but it's my decision whether I'm being cheated or not, not your decision. Anet is giving me 4 character slots when I buy factions. They then take two of those away if I choose to actually play the entire game as designed. Thus, they are cheating me, and I will not be buying Factions.

Quote:

When people call out Anet, I will post a response (search this thread for all my points), If people start acting as if this is incredibly onesided, then I'll post an alternative point of view.

Please don't waste everybody's time by playing devil's advocate.

Quote:

It is a matter of expected grind which I have covered before.

And as I covered before, you are an idiot if you think that having a character slot limit helps the PVP balance.